Podcast 212: Love Island; Amanda Batula’s bun; Amanda and West talking KIDS? Why is RHORI Liz so ragey?

We’re watching Love Island, as promised. We’re not so sure about it yet, but giving it a fair shake. Everyone’s talking about Amanda Batula’s bun; we have theories about it. Plus two exclusives about West and Amanda, including what they were overheard saying about having kids?!?! Our theory about why West has been so quiet during the reunion. Cocktailers knew about West’s “secret girlfriend,” Meija, who apparently West was also in love with. Liz from RHORI is actually scary. But why the rage? B has a very interesting theory.

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“These shows are a sociology study, because that’s what Love Island is. It’s, okay, beauty has gotten you ahead your whole life, but now it can’t, because everybody’s beautiful.”

Hear more about:

• Love Island (early episodes)
• Age, sexuality, and viewing comfort
• Reality TV as sociology
• Amanda & Wes in Italy (Summer House context)
• Amanda & Wes relationship dynamics
• Wes’s broader pattern with women (Miha, Sierra, others)
• Sierra’s experience and racial dynamics
• Reunion behavior and public perception
• Liz, Alicia, and possible mafia-adjacent theories (RHORI)

He doesn't want the audience to hate him even more if he leaves her, because that would serve as a redemption arc for her. So Amanda's best bet is for him to leave her high and dry to be spotted with me, ha, whatever, because people will say, you know what, Amanda was in a 10 year marriage, they both admitted it wasn't a happy marriage. There was not love, there was not affection. She had a lapse in judgment. We don't expect Sierra to ever forgive her, but it doesn't make her an awful person. If he leaves her, she gets that. Welcome. welcome to Cocktails and Gossip, the podcast where we drink cocktails, but you better believe we're going to spill the tape. We chat reality TV, celebrity blinds, and the hottest tea from bravococtails.com And, as always, it's all alleged and just for fun. We do not verify our blonde I'm V, and I'm Amanda. Let's get into this week's teat.

What's up, cocktailers? Hello, Amanda. Hi, BA. Hello, cocktailers. Before we get into all of our usual stuff, you guys last year told us that you want us to talk about Love Island. I'm just gonna be honest, I'm struggling a little bit, because, and I think this just might be B, and I were talking a little bit about this, might just be, and I want to get your opinion on this, B, but is it my age? I get the appeal, very hot bodies, right, and I love that there's so much diversity, but the games are pretty much like everyone make out with each other and see who they like the best. I'm not hooked yet, I'll just put it that way.

Okay, so a lot of you guys said to me the first couple of episodes you're gonna feel that, feel like I feel the same way, and what I was told is the first couple of episodes we're going to feel that way, and then we get hooked. I think, for me, because honestly, I've never watched, right? I think I tried last year, but didn't even get past that weird music video they start with, so I was taken aback, and I wish I really wish Tracy was here, because I'd like her take, because you know she's the lead well, because she's a horndog. This is what I'm saying, but I'm going to tell you, as a 40 something woman, that kissing game. Now I am not saying that when I was a single young lady in a club, I never meet out with the guy, and then a little while later saw another guy and kissed him. Of course, I think we've all done that. If you haven't, don't judge me. But the fact that they were like kissing and then turn their head and kiss somebody else, it was like spin the bottle in seventh grade, except very sexual, because it was like I just was, oh, whoa.

And the fact that they have to sleep together in the same bed, I know that's part of it, but like, which

is so weird. Okay, and so did you watch both episodes?

So I got through the first, I'm gonna, and started the second, so no, I haven't.

Okay, I'm spoiling, I don't care.

Fine, please spoil.

So I won't say who, because to be honest with you, I probably couldn't, if I try, because I don't know everyone's name. So, at the end of the first episode, they're like, okay, if you want to stay with your partner, stay on the green.if you don't, go on the red.so okay, they're on either side of the famous door that they use. And then two bombshells enter the villa, and this gorgeous girl, and this gorgeous guy comes. There were two girls on the red, which means they want to explore new connections, and they were ditching their, you know, the guy on the other side of the door. So the guy comes over, the hot Brazilian guy is the bombshell. He comes over, he makes out with the first girl, then he walks over, he makes out with the second girl. Then on the other side of the wall, there were two guys, the girl, hot girl, goes over the bombshell, makes out with the one guy, makes out with the other guy, then those four, so the one bombshell guy goes with the two girls to another villa, the one bombshell girl goes with the two guy to another villa, but here's the kicker, they had to sleep in the bed, but the bombshell slept between both the people, so both girls were on either side of the girl, and both guys were on, I okay, I'm trying, you guys, I really am, and it gets weirder, because then one of one of the trios, the girl likes, obviously likes the other guy because she's cuddling up and kissing him, and then the other guy goes, "Okay, my turn, I'm not making this up, and she's, "Nope, not tonight. So it was a spoiler, because obviously we knew who she'd end up picking once they did the reveal, but I'm like, "Okay, hold up right now. I now have been rejected. I'm laying in a bed. As these people are doing, God knows what, right next to me.

I, yeah, I'm gonna keep trying for you guys. I'm thinking, give it a full two weeks of trying, because I also want to see. I will see, though, on and see.

Once you get to the second episode, Amanda, you do start to feel the intrigue of, oh, okay, so now these two ditched their people, but then they didn't get picked, so now they're vulnerable, so like, yeah, I can totally see myself getting hooked, and I guess I'll become more.. I feel like I'm shouting because I'm like, it's just.. listen, it is what it is, that as you get older, because I, I'm trying to think back to college, and like, we all had roommates who were hooking up with guys in the beds next to us. Let's, nobody that has gone away to college can pretend like that didn't happen.

Yeah,

but then again, I was 20 then, and people are 2223 24 You couldn't do this show with 40 year olds, like,

no. Yeah, 40

year old adults are not sleeping in a bed together unless they're

on a floor or anybody's like a couch or wherever I was, right, and now there's no way I would sleep in anything but a nice bed, so I'm putting my 40 year old self and values and thoughts on 20 year olds, and so I recognize that so far I liked Officer Sexy Pants, and I'm

not gonna give any spoilers now. Yes,

I really liked the Paralympic athlete. I thought,

yes,

awesome. And I think that the blonde girl, again, guys, I promise I will do better. And now

Kenzie,

yeah, Kenzie. I think she is really.. she's got a lot, probably more personality, I feel like, than I feel like

episode two is gonna suck you in based on who you said you liked.

Okay?

Are the most interesting players in second episode, which is this is how people get hooked to it.

Yeah,

casting knows what they're doing, and just by you saying that, and then knowing, because listen, the reality is these are all beautiful, beautiful, young, fit people, so it's like you have to have something other than looks, and I think that's what makes these shows interesting, because these people independently are people who, when they walk up to a pool at spring break they're automatically getting the attention, but now you're in a situation where everybody's a 10, so now you have to give a little extra, and it's interesting to see who's able to do it versus who's not, because when you're just beautiful and you never have to like rob from traders, and I believe he was from Love Island, right? So I totally get it now, because what would Rob ever have to do? Rob could walk into a room and be like, 'Hey, stupid, and I'd be like, 'Oh my god, I think he likes me.

I know that's actually a really good point that they have to – they can't just use their looks to stand out, that they have to have more, including kissing skills.

What I find so interesting about all these reality shows is I have done now at this point I have my account for jeez six years, I have so many universities have asked me to speak with them, and I always do, I mean I am a professor now of reality television. Most recently I was asked by UMass, which shout out to UMass, my both of my cousins who listen are graduates of UMass at Amherst. They're doing a study on reality TV, and they asked me to post to get contestants. Isn't that so cool? I'm like, can you imagine, and these are the things that I like to show my dad, because you know, he tells me I'm lowbrow, but it is a sociology study, he shows, because that's what Love Island is. It's okay, you've had beauty has gotten you ahead your whole life, but now it can't, because everybody's beautiful.

Yeah, I was funny too, because I was not really having watched. I was like, maybe I'll try to watch this with my daughter, because I'm always looking for.. I'm like, oh my god, thank God I didn't even try, because literally it. yeah, not appropriate to watch with my tween daughter.

Wait a minute, can I tell you what my son, who is a young teen as well, said,

"What

I was like, I have to watch Love Island, and he was like, "And guys, I did not realize, thank God he said no. He was like, "What? I'm like, yeah, do you want to watch with me? In my mind's thinking it was like akin to Traders or The Bachelorette, which probably might not also be appropriate. I don't even know, because I don't watch Bachelorette, and he was like, "Matt, that's like brain rot. What are you, why are you watching that? I hope I have to, because for the pod, Amanda and I want to discuss it. Yeah, he's first of all, I'm not watching that with you, it is brain rot, and it would be very inappropriate to watch with my mother, which tells me he's obviously viewed an episode or two.

Yeah, or at least knows enough, yeah. They see they see clips on social media, or on some watching

the kissing game. I can't tell you, I just was thinking to myself, thank God my son is not sitting next to me.

Yeah, yeah, truly, okay. We're gonna keep trying, like I said. I'm giving it two weeks, guys. I want to give it at least two until Sierra comes on the After Sun special.

No promise that we can watch every night. It is summer, you guys know. My summer nights are at the pool and hanging.

I know, and that's what's been hard, is I'm.. I've been out the last couple nights and having to try to catch up with TV in bits and pieces, so which is why I'm behind on episode two. I'll do my best to catch up by next week. We have been getting photos of Wes and Amanda on their Italy trip, so we got that photo of Wes and Amanda at the wedding. Cocktailers knew about that first. Before that, we obviously got that picture of them walking down the streets of Rome. I want to say West had some bottle of booze or wine or something in his hand. A huge shout out to Dumois, who also they had the first picture, which was them

in the airport in Rome, which is how we knew, and a couple of our cocktailers shared with us that they mentioned, I don't know if it was on their podcast or they're live, because I do listen, but I must have missed whichever this was, and they credited us, which is so kind and such a legit account, great respect for them, and we love when we're credited, and they were.. I guess they were, because people are like, "Oh, what is it, Amanda, sending it in? You guys know that we don't know we have anonymous email system, so I can't tell you who sent it in, but even if it was people, I love how the content creators, who are all sharing every single detail are now like, oh, we have to look at all these pictures of them in Italy. It's like, if it was coming into your inbox, hon, you'd be reposting it. So get out of my comments trying to shame me for posting a unique picture that only I have. And, of course, Dumas is receiving. Then shout out to Face Reality 16. They also got a picture of them in Taormina, so if they are sending it, they know they're sending it to the best accounts, us Dumois and Face Reality 16, just saying,

based on just the perspective of it's one of the wedding one was the backs of their heads, the other one was them walking towards the person with the camera on the street, the other one was somebody clearly sitting at a table or two away when they're in at the restaurant. I don't think it's them, but

you never know. I was happy that we got the wedding picture, and the reason I was happy was because that was a cocktail exclusive in cocktail party. They landed in Rome. We were told by somebody that they were in Italy to attend a wedding for a member of Wes family who was having a destination wedding in Italy, so Saturday morning I receive a picture of them at the wedding, I post it, she was wearing the bun, there is a lot of blowback with this bun, so here are the theories about the bun, and then I want your take.

Okay,

some people are saying that it's because remember when West said that, do you like to be choked or whatever, that was that West likes to pull on it, so it's some kink with them. Other people are saying it's passive aggressive because every made everyone, like fans and viewers made fun of her hair at the reunion, so it's like a passive-aggressive way of her acting like, "I don't care what you say about my hair, I'm gonna wear my bun. And somebody else mentioned, and this one is a little upsetting, that it could be she clearly has lost weight, she doesn't really look well, whether it's stress, whether it's the rumored partying, whatever it is, we all know that weight loss and stress can lead to hair loss. I, myself, have had that happen, but I also know that she used to get extensions, like she always would mention it. I'm going for my extensions on her story, and she certainly has enough hair that she could put extensions in, so I'm going with Wes likes the bun. What are you going with?

Okay, I have another theory. Let me first say this in no way to be mean, but I had never thought of Amanda as one of the people on this show or any reality stars who, when I think of great hair, right? Danielle has great hair. Paige has great hair. Sierra Lindsay, Lindsay has rocked the long hair and the short hair, like it's always done. Amanda's has always seemed like an afterthought, and she clearly is one of those people. Like one of my best friends is this way too, like always has her hair back, because she just doesn't like it down, and I think this is a style she could clearly do on her own without glam. It's definitely giving.. I don't give a fuck, and I think that's what she means for it to do. I really don't think it's that deep, but the other theory is she could be. Culturally appropriating the middle-aged tired mom hairdo.

I have to tell you something, that I almost just beat myself, because when I get home, I get the end of a busy day, literally. When I put on my Adam Sandler pajamas, you know, the eggy sweats, the next thing I do is put my hair in that fuck ass bun, right? Wash my face and get ready to wipe down the counters in the kitchen.

You're being culturally appropriated. I saw I was out at a concert and there was a mom who was there with her late kids and literally had the exact hairdo, and I was like, see, Amanda is culturally appropriating tired moms, and obviously I was like, don't share this picture, because no, nobody wants to shame anybody for just being, yeah, we

all wear it

tired. I am wearing a form of it right now, just because I've been working all day, I'm not going anywhere until later.

You know what, I have to, this is, I am such a middle-aged mom that one of my favorite hairstyles on myself is like right at my chin, a bob. I have dark hair, kind of like the Paige vibe, you know how Paige used to have that. It frames my face while everyone says my hair looks the best like that. However, that hairdo is a lot of work, and you can't do the fuck ass bump. Like when I wake up every day, I have to, like, when your hair is long, you don't have to style it, even if you wash it, you could pull it back in a fuck ass bun. When it's a bob, you have to give it a little bit of TLC, which is a pain in the ass.

That's, I literally always say that, because I've had, I've chopped and donated my hair a couple times, and I really do, the I like doing that as a gesture, but I really hate that I have to actually do my hair when I have it in a bob, so I completely agree with you. You can't get two days' wear out of that hair, no matter how thick your hair is, because it just doesn't work. Yeah, you've got to at least, yeah, give it a like you said, a judge with a hair dryer, whatever, and again, totally there for the people who can do that and have the time. I just, a lot of days do not have that,

and if I have the time, it's my energy is not to do that. So then we get the picture of Wes and Amanda and Taormina, and I have to take a moment to talk about Taormina. It is, were you there when you studied in Florence? I mean, I never

went there.

It was on our rail ticket, you could have, and like, the train going to Sicily. Full disclosure, I was a few bottles of wine in when we did it, but, like, the train, like, goes on a boat. I don't know if that's possible, or like, the train goes in, and then you get off, and you're on the boat, something like that. I don't really remember. You guys are gonna explain it and make it make sense, but if you've done it, you know what I'm talking about. Okay, so I went with my best friend when she visited me. She, we were in Florence, and then I was like, "Okay, where are we taking my train pass? Her and I were like, "Oh, let's go somewhere hot, mind you. Okay, we went to Taormina. It snowed for the first time in eight years. We were in Benetton, buying clothes, because we went there with bikinis. Okay, funny. So, skipping ahead, 19 year old girls, it is this glamorous historic resort town, it's off the cliffs of Monte Toro, eastern coast of Sicily, overlooking the Ionian, like just backdrops of Mount Etna, like just the thing that, like you picture in your dreams, right, and it has become more widely known because season two of White Lotus, that was the town.

Yeah,

so when I saw they were there, I was like, they have good taste. If you're in Italy and you pick there, like that's a really cool.. there's so many places to go, and they're all beautiful, but

yeah, there and Sardinia are really high on my little go for the next Italy trip. Yes, okay. So before we get into the reunion, I do want to talk about the exclusive gossip that we had that we shared through cocktail party, so you guys are getting it here on the cocktail pod, but we got an email from somebody who could overhear what they were talking about in that picture in that restaurant in Taormina. I keep being worried I'm going to say Tamina wrong. Okay, so here's the email. Was out to dinner last night in Taormina, sat on the same patio as West and Amanda. They were fighting. She's so insecure at first. They were talking about where they wanted to raise their kids, like Connecticut or Rhode Island, and then they started talking about the wedding they attended, and was like, and she was like. Like your dad called me dumb, and they got into a huge fight, and he was like, I literally don't know what you're talking about, and she picked a fight, and then was like, the victim, OMG, are you actually mad at me, is what she said. Wait, why are you mad?

So it does feel like there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, the person who sent this to me was texting with their friend, who was the only other person on the patio, so it's the same person who sent me the picture, who sent Dumas the picture. Apparently, they were the only ones there, and it was the same shot, because the guy in the middle had the shirt on in both pictures. So, I do believe the conversation. First, she's from New Jersey, he's from St. Louis, so for her Connecticut makes sense, tri-state area. I'm confused about Rhode Island. Are they hoping to join the Real Housewives of Rhode Island? By the way, I have to mention this, I don't know if this is, if it went over my head, if I missed it, but one of my favorite followers, who I always chat with, coined the term Rory for Rhode Island, R H O R I, and I'm obsessed with it. Have you heard that before?

Yeah, I think I really heard Andy use it, but yes, but I like it because it is a mouthful to say, so I love it, Rory. Yeah, I

also like the name Rory, for both boys and girls. I think it's so pretty.

Yeah, you agree. Okay, so yeah, the Rhode Island felt a little bit strange, but I am.. I would love to follow up with that cocktail or to hear if, like, how that conversation with, was it mostly one-sided? Was West joining in? Is he the one who's.. he didn't suggest any places, and was he actually talking about kids too, or was Amanda? Because here's what I take away from this, talking about kids, obviously very serious. Maybe they really are in love, and maybe they really are going to take this all the way, and as you and I have both thought, the only way they can even maybe partially redeem themselves is especially after their terrible behavior at the reunion is if they do take it all the way, get married, have kids, the whole bit, but the big thing that really stuck out about that piece of tea is here is Amanda once again reverting to her making herself a victim cycle, she brings up something that she knows there's going to be a fight, Wes probably defended him, and then boom, Amanda is back to being a victim, because now Wes is mad at her. It just feels like this is her pattern, and this is somehow likes to be in the victim situation.

Someone, it's interesting you said maybe they are in love because someone DM me something that I have not even posted yet. So this is an exclusive. I didn't post it yet, and I will post it. I'm just hoping to get more details. They said I'm talking to a fellow bravaholic mom at my son's lacrosse game the other night, and she mentioned she has some real insider info that she knows someone that knows West, and apparently he's really into Amanda. He is smitten and obsessed with her. She also said she heard she is a mess, lazy, and has nothing going on, and has no friends. So I wrote back, thank you so much. But also, any clarifying details, even if I can't share them, it's always important for me to be able to say to you guys, like if she were to say to me, it is West's aunt, like you know what I'm saying. Then I would be like, okay, maybe he is telling his parents, and then you never know if he's speaking the truth or whatever, but then at least, and I may not be able to share that part, but I don't have any of those details. This is just somebody saying

it, that they have insight and talent.

So take it for what we will, until I, if I get any clarifying details that lead me to believe it's legit possible, but I don't. I just don't believe it with him.

Yeah, I think everybody's clocked him in that. Oh, or maybe, maybe he really does. He really is into all of these women, Miha, Amanda, Sierra, and truly feels like that at first, and then gets bored and moves on. It could be more of that sort of situation than it would be, he goes into, like, finds his next target, if you will, on a conscious

level be operating like that, you mean, yeah,

okay, but Dara called him out for this during the reunion because Wes was out there by himself when Amanda was taking her extended break, and she, Dara, really gave it to him, and then also spoke very eloquently to Amanda when she came back. I know we're bringing up five things at once here. Yeah,

we're going to be hopping around as we, Amanda and I, write notes and. We start by just whatever's top of head, and then we're like, oh, we miss this and this, so that'll be at the end.

You guys know that, though. Old friends of ours by now.

Yes.

So, Amanda took this extended absence from set. What I've been reading online, Andy Cohen said she left for at least 20 minutes. Lindsay pipes up in the comments, saying that it was close to an hour, regardless, it was longer than felt very.. it did not feel professional to me. What were your thoughts on that?

I'm with Sierra. If you want to roll around into the mud, then you got to deal with the dirt, something she said something to that effect. Yeah, Rachel Raquel did not walk off, Sandoval did not walk off, Housewives, and if they walk off, they come right back. Lindsay's saying she was gone for at least an hour. You are not a victim. And what's interesting to me is that she made a very bold Instagram story a week before the reunion, and she was like, I will be at the reunion, and I plan to address everyone directly. Really, it's so easy behind your screen, and she didn't have Kyle, which she's had for the last 910 years, protecting her. What I took away from it is that, and first of all, what made her walk off was she was like, I wanted to make sure what I was feeling was she didn't say reciprocated, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that, because it's embarrassing, I'm hooking up with West, he's seeing another person, all Mia said was, yeah, it is

embarrassing, embarrassing,

just she didn't say you're a stupid bitch, she just, that's it, but truth hurts,

yeah,

so what I think I've said this before, but Amanda really thought this is like big takeaway, the fans loved her, that we all rode for her. We felt so bad for her because of witnessing Kyle, especially him cursing at her the last season, that we would look past her screwing over Sierra because we would see it the way that they're positioning it. Two single people, Sierra and West dated a long time ago, they were not married. Amanda totally underestimated the reaction, but my thing is, I do believe that I, and I wish I could. There are things I can't say, because you know that there are certain things that are told to me that I don't portray, but I just know that she never imagined this kind of blowback. I just think it's something she thought she could talk her way out of pretty easily.

Yeah,

but with that said, she had a couple of weeks between her thinking that and her having to film the reunion, and in those couple of weeks the gravity of support that Sierra received and backlash that her and West received was so loud, and I do know that when you are a reality star, and you, she's surrounding herself with West, and whoever her team is, and whoever her people are. It does become somewhat of an echo chamber, but the fact that she didn't account for it, like she looked truly surprised. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, I think even with her social media posts, when she said, 'I'm going to address this, I think she's thinking like, 'I can handle this, and I think part of the reason she was so upset at the reunion is because it came back like it's just so much, just like you said, so much more, even from her cast mates than she expected, but I think part of that problem was because she and Wes, but specifically more so, I think Amanda did not seem remorseful at all. Wes was more mute, but Amanda was defensive and dismissive and not remorseful, that makes it so much harder for all of us as viewers, and unkind. Yeah, she was

unkind.

She really was, so you know, whatever she did during that hour seemed to calm her down. Maybe another beta blocker, I don't know, but here's what Dara said to Amanda about West. I'm going to give you the exact quote. I guess that I would reiterate to you that the biggest pattern in his life is that it is the West show, and it will always be the West show, and the biggest concern of his consistently is being well liked and well received, and he doesn't prioritize treating the woman he is linked to romantically with the same respect as he does anyone else in his life, and I just foresee him to, for a very long time, wanting someone who will mold and fold and. Fit into his life without excuse or complaint, and it's up to you to decide what's worth sacrificing for that kind of person. Boom,

first of all, Dara, is she that was incredible

with words? She sure does.

Andy's reaction was like, whoa. Sierra's reaction was like, get her,

yeah,

get him, whatever it was. And what's interesting is that backstage, Dara couldn't hear, right? We know that she couldn't hear. She essentially said everything that Sierra and Mia and Lindsay and Kyle, that everybody said, Carl, she said it in a very concise, accurate way, really, with without name calling, with just spitting facts as she knows them, as somebody who has socialized with West and is in his group of friends for a number of years. West agreed. So, again, I want to shout out our friend faced reality 16, who posted a picture of West and Amanda on the couch, and said West isn't denying what is being said about him, he's actually nodding and saying yes because he wants Amanda to break up with him. Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Yeah, I think I agree, because I saw Face Reality 16's post two, and I thought, yes, that is exactly it. He's a guy who wants to be the good guy all the time, so he tries to get girls to break up with him, so that he can keep his good guy image. He's to let everyone else do the dirty work to get Amanda to break up with him, so then they break for lunch, and he says to Amanda, Sierra's getting under your skin. I don't know, it felt a little critical to me, but he was like, you need to breathe, you need to apologize, double layer, be your point, simply this will help with your composure, and don't sound snippy.

Oh, I found him to be so critical of her.

Yeah,

he seemed annoyed by her when she said to him, 'They're making me feel stupid for trusting you. All he said was, 'Yeah. He didn't reassure her. He didn't say anything to her that was supportive or anything like, 'Listen, you and I know we've discussed this. You know that it's different with you. You know that I love you. You know that I want to be with you. I haven't felt that way for the other women I've dated. They were all great girls and everything, but it's different with.. we didn't.. he didn't say that. Okay, and we're not saying that when cameras are on, then I don't care if you ever say it, he didn't say you can feel safe with me, none of that. He is not even gaslighting her. We did not see him, we just saw him nodding and agreeing with the negative feedback from his castmates, and telling her you could do better on stage,

and I think that's his mo right, and I think that's how he's been able to get away with having all these different women, and he, this is what he did to Sierra, right, like he never said you're the only person for me, but he did things like let her having her come home and meet his family and letting her think she's the only one, so now he's done it to me, ha, and now we're watching him real time do it to Amanda too,

and I think that he is regretting it because he's now realizing just how long she stayed with Kyle even though she was being mistreated by her own admission, so she's not going to leave so easily, and he doesn't want the audience to hate him even more if he leaves her, because that would serve as a redemption arc for her, so Amanda's best bet is for him to leave her high and dry to be spotted with Mija, whatever. Because people will say, you know what, Amanda was in a 10 year marriage, they both admitted it wasn't a happy marriage, there was not love, there was not affection, she had a lapse in judgment. We don't expect Sierra to ever forgive her, but it doesn't make her an awful person. If he leaves her, she gets that.

You nailed it. You absolutely nailed it. Because, yeah, if he leaves Amanda, then she gets the victim arc, and then he continues to look even worse, and he's got really nowhere to go. This is his only play.

Yeah.

Okay, let's talk about Sierra during the lunch break. Though,

first of all, I thought it was.. did you think it was Paige at first with the Facetime?

I would have, except I saw the preview.

Oh,

honestly, I knew it was gonna be her, but I would have thought that had I not.

I did not, and I saw the dark hair, and then I was like, oh, it's me, ha. So Sierra gives me a rundown of what's happening at the reunion, tells her West is leaving Amanda out to dry, not supporting her. They were like, "Yeah, we expected this. Miha, then details how the night before, watch what happens live. She was at his apartment, she told him how much she.. he told her how much he loved her, but they couldn't be together because she's not on Bravo. Kyle was like, what a manipulation that is. Listen, I just want to say this. We have a lot of intel on Mija Shileen. I think it's what you just said a couple minutes ago that he makes everyone feel special and reigns them in, but I don't believe that he ever specifically told anybody they were in a monogamous relationship. I believe the intel we got from Chailene, which was like, "Listen, I am on a TV show. What about in the Hamptons? If I'm at an event and I hook up with a fan, it is what it is, but you're my main chick. I'm doing kind of TV,

I'm doing it for the viewers,

exactly. They don't keep you on the cast if you have a girlfriend, so it can't be like that. It's not that I don't want to do it, like, and I think that maybe it was said that he wouldn't get together in a public way like he was with Sierra with anyone. Maybe he gave them that, maybe he was like, I'm not going to date anyone on the show, it's just a fan or a hookup, or so that when he was with Amanda, it was like, what are you doing? She's on the show, this is a story. So I do think so. I think people are getting confused in the semantics of it. I feel like for Mija and Chailene, the betrayal is more so that he's doing this with Amanda.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because yeah, he probably did tell them anything I do really means nothing, but now knowing he's had this ongoing multiple time, however you want to call it, relationship, whatever, with her, I think part of it too is I think he's very careful with his words, we saw him like this with Sierra, and he let Sierra in for that because Wes was bringing her home to his family, that meant maybe more than he thought it did, and we saw him, according to Miha, say, "I love you, I can't, I can't be with you publicly because of the show, and I'm sorry if somebody's telling me they love me and I love them. Maybe you just don't realize you have to clarify. Are you telling anyone else you're loving you love them? Like that really could be where Miha was at, and she definitely thought she was the main chick, at the very least, if not the only, or at least the main relationship.

Yes,

so at in the reunion, we see the cast pretty much begging Amanda. Lindsay and Carl are saying essentially, don't ignore these red flags. Lindsay calls him a social climber that it goes from girl to girl. Kyle even called it out in the show as well.

I saw a.. if you guys aren't on Threads, I've always had Threads, and I know it automatically shares my posts, but I've really been reading it lately, and there's so many smart and funny content creators out there. I started sharing their stuff a lot, because at night I'm scrolling, like I have to shame this one. Somebody said it's so obvious that Kyle is one of the last, is the last generation to read Catcher in the Rye, when he called West a phony, and Catcher in the Rye is one of my favorite books. I read it in the eighth grade, and Kyle and I are the same age, so I just loved that, but we use this. It's just the way he said it felt very like holding Caulfield. Anywho, yeah, I think this is also why Amanda got so upset, because at the beginning Lindsay points out to her, she's Amanda, I feel bamboozled by you, I am angry at you, but I'm also very protective of you. We've gotten so close, and she's referring to the fact that I think they did get really close when they were filming in the city, and Amanda was confiding in her about her marriage ending and everything, because they always have had a tricky relationship, and I think that the summer into the fall, Amanda and Lindsay really bonded, I think Amanda was sitting there, because again, when you're living in an echo chamber, when the only person you're talking to is West, you start to believe it, but then when you're looking and you're seeing Carl, who is your friend of 10 years, who has no interest in it other than protect you, Lindsay has no interest in it, they are two people, whether they're mad at you or not, they're warning you, they're telling you what they're seeing, and you also know that they're smart people. So she's realizing, oh shit, you know what I'm saying. And West isn't making eye contact with you, he isn't rubbing your back, he isn't assisting you verbally in any of these things, so. She was sitting there. Oh my god, I chose this guy, and it really is all bullshit. And Lindsay and Carl are right, even Sierra, who's angry at her, is right. So when Lindsay says this to her, she was like trying to talk sense into her, which obviously the reunion is not the time to do it, but it's what made her upset, and Kyle asks, "What's your understanding of his relationship with Miha? And Wes jumps in and says, "It's public, everybody I've hooked up with once in a while, listening. You little pathy enough. No one's listening.

I was a

pathological liar.

Oh, I was.. I guess he's saying at Pat's.. like, Pat, she's saying Patsy. I didn't understand that. Oh, okay.

And, but the best is West just immediately shuts up.

He does

immediately shuts up. It's like when the police pull you over and you've had drinks and they say you have the right to remain silent. Anything you can say can and will be used against you. That's West at a reunion.

And yeah, luckily I haven't had that experience, but I have not

either, but I've watched cops many times.

Of course, I scoffed out loud. What, when he said that about that, Miha is just a person who he hooked up with every once in a while. It actually helped a lot, because KJ is relatively, he's new to the cast, and some people, like I, had assumed that this was what was bothering him, but it helped that he said this out loud, that he said that his dad was a womanizer, and talks about how much his mom had to deal with because of that, and that it destroyed his family, that his dad is a habitual liar, and that his own family experience is why what Wes has done is hurting him. That it really killed me.

And do you know what I thought in that moment? What, and I don't know if Wes truly is a sociopsychopath, and nothing could ever get through to him, or if he's just a young fuck boy who went too far, and we'll see the error of his ways, but maybe hearing it from a peer who's his friend, or was sometimes it takes, because men don't say that to other men. Jesse's angry at him, but the way that KJ articulated that to West, it could actually sink in. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe I'm being naive and hopeful,

but also to know that kind of behavior can cause generational hurt. I think that, or

maybe Wes thought, whatever, I don't have any kids.

Yeah, but if Wes doesn't figure it out, you know, he doesn't keep it in his pants unless he's been snipped. It could still happen, just biology and really, honestly, math,

yeah,

tells us that.

Yeah,

then he starts talking about the conversation that they had at the dinner table this summer about race, and when Sierra shares that there's a whole other aspect to her experience being on this show when it comes to racial dynamics, and that she wants to talk about these things with her white friends, because there's a whole layer that she deals with that they don't, and then she also says last and Amanda said the right things, but she doesn't feel like they mean it, she says that they say things like say what they think people want to hear, essentially. And I think she's right.

Yeah, they just, they don't get it, and it doesn't seem they care to get it. Amanda, of course, defends herself. Sierra, this hurt me a lot. And Sarah's like, "No, it does not. Andy asked her, asks Amanda, what makes you think knowing how Wes treated Sierra? What makes you think that he is going to treat you any differently? And Amanda says that's conversations Wes and I have had, doesn't answer the question. And then they press Mia, press Lindsey, press, okay, what did he say, and she's.. she looks just.. she goes, those are private conversations. Yes, because there is nothing that he said to you, because again, she's realizing in these moments that he really hasn't.. a lot of it is her assumption, the fact that he was there for her. And I'm going to be honest with you, I'm watching in the city when she announces the apartment. I do wonder if there's a part of him we know they were hooking up. Sierra cites january 17, and then the statement had to be rushed, which doesn't make any sense. Her whole New Year's Eve story doesn't make sense. There's a lot of bright cross. We've posted some to our stories, but without getting into the minutia of all that, obviously she rushed it because she was scared of being outed, and she wanted to make sure she was separated, so that if she was outed, she could, the longer the sooner the announcement came, the more distance she could put between them hooking up and her splitting from her husband, because they have a divorce to go through, and there's monies, and it's legal, and I think that Wes probably shit his pants. Oh my god, she's getting her own apartment, she's really leaving him. I'm stuck with her. I don't know,

it's yeah, unless we really understand what the timeline really is, it's gonna be it to know. But yeah, the thing that really stuck out to me about this whole conversation, is West could have jumped in at any point to say this is different, that he's taking this situation with Amanda seriously, but not only crickets, but there was no, you mentioned verbal, but there was no physical touch, there was no hand around her back, there was no holding her, there was nothing, it was crickets on all fronts, and to the point where he doesn't even move or twitch when she runs off the stage, the whole cast is go after her and finally goes after her, and then he comes back and says she's taking a beat, and whatever, but I'm honestly surprised, and I'm surprised that I'm not surprised. I'm surprised that Amanda and West, after this, be all of this behavior during the reunion, we're still together, but then I'm not surprised, for the reasons that we just discussed, which is that Amanda glommed on and Wes has found himself in quite the trap.

Can we just discuss, and I know guys, we're going into all the details. It's almost over. We got one more week, and then we'll focus on everything else. I just want to say, so not only did she show no remorse, was she unkind, but when Andy asks about the ad, so Carl and Lindsay did an ad, right, where you're a mess, and I have a strong opinion on her reaction to this. She, she said she was mad. Number one, I don't think she was really mad. I think she just said that because it was like the only moment she had to potentially, like, you know, you know, right, be a victim, but here's why it irked me, and it just, it brings me back to not feeling bad for her. Carl and Lindsay are arguably have been very good friends to her, especially Carl throughout, and recently Lindsay, right? They filmed together. Lindsay was there for her in the fall. They obviously spent a lot of time together, even if we're going to call it a show friendship. Lindsay was there during this very difficult time with Kyle. Now, Lindsay and Carl ended an engagement. They went through a very hard time together. They were very important in each other's lives, and then they were not in each other's lives, and there were intense hard feelings. If I'm Amanda, and I give half a shit about Carl or Lindsay doing this ad brought them together. They're friends again.

Yeah,

the fact that she is so selfish that she used that moment to try to get the audience to be mad at them, which, guess what, none of us are mad at them. I just feel again, so Bustle reached out, and they were like asking me questions, and they featured us in a, in an article for the five most influential TV Instagram accounts, which was a great honor. Thank you so much, Bustle, and they said to me, What would your advice be to a new reality star, and my first thing was, spend the money, get yourself a decent PR person, get a good sharp girl, a good gay run things by them, because this was an opportunity that person could sit with you and give you sample questions. This was an opportunity for Amanda. What would have brought the audience back to her would have been if she said what I just said, you know what, I put myself in this mess. If they want to make a couple bucks off it, good for them. And actually it made me happy to see two people who've been so good to me reunite, and I hope that their friendship continues. That would have made me, as a viewer, be like, you know what, Amanda's not such an asshole.

Precisely, I couldn't agree more,

and it's you. Oh, you wouldn't monetize off their breakup. You go to her thing, her first pin post is the Buffalo Wild Wing ad, making fun of Kyle. Now that is her own breakup, but come on, it's not that serious. And she didn't actually care that they did that ad. Maybe she was jealous they made money because all her brand deals dried out, but she wasn't actually mad. She wasn't like, I'm so hurt that Lindsay and Carl did this ad. That's not a thing.

I didn't think to just to defend Carl, and I didn't think it was mean spirit, and I think it was almost more them making fun of themselves too, which I thought was, but it was. Not mean-spirited, where we've seen a lot of that in these situations.

It wasn't like they were dressed like it wasn't like they dressed like Amanda and Carl, dressed like West, and they were like hanging at a college bar, acting like dopes like that. That, even though it wouldn't bother me, I could understand being annoyed at that. It was Carl being a mess, which was something Kyle said about and his actions, and then they were just joking about how now they're friends again, because girls and Bess, like,

yeah, I agree. Okay, we do have a little bit of time, and there's one thing I want to talk about with Rhode Island before we go. There was a lot in the episode, but wanted to really talk about this, so Liz, Joellen, Alicia go to Boston to go watch Rosie's husband do his Frank Sinatra show. In the car, Liz starts to go after Alicia about saying that her family was homeless. So Alicia says, once again, that's how I felt, that was my experience. Joellen tries to mediate. I don't think she did the best job, because she was more just trying to get everybody to move on, versus, you know, and then she said Alicia's awake, allowed to feel the way that she feels, but again, mediation not one of Joellen's strong suits, but I appreciated the effort, right? But my question is, Why is Liz going so hard on this? Her rage was palpable, but why, why was she raging? It was rage. Why? What is this really about?

So, Liz is scary. We watched her physically intimidate Joe Ellen.

Yeah,

I am really uncomfortable with her behavior, and again, we're going to get into it when we have a whole Rhode Island episode, which we will. We know that Summer House is just.. it's got our attention when they met at lunch, and she doubled down in the cursing.. we know her friend Dino's a criminal, but what is it really about for me? It's Liz conducts herself as if she's a mafia boss, and everybody has to kiss the ring, and so when Joellen, in her mind, sided more with Alicia, who, by the way, in this circumstance was the one wronged and was the victim, and was upset about a very difficult situation in her life with her father, Liz was mad that she wasn't more neutral, or that she didn't just shut up. Liz doesn't feel that anybody is allowed to say anything to her,

because Joellen didn't kiss.

But I do have to tell you something. A theory that a cocktail or told me,

okay? It

makes a lot of sense. It is just a theory, so we know the friend Dino, that's all we need to say. He has convictions, he's tied to the mob, she's named in the conviction, all that, right? We got her all

in published, published public documents. Yeah,

so they said that Alicia's situation with her father could have been tied to mafia stuff, and maybe Alicia's dad was a part of the mafia, lost the house in an illegal, nefarious way. Liz, Alicia keeps saying she's known me since I'm born. Yeah, Liz may know the real reason, and in Liz's mind, she's being a good soldier, trying to redirect the narrative, so people don't look into Alicia's family. So I can see that as the motive for Liz, but I think a couple things. I think number one, Alicia may not care about protecting her father because he's a piece of shit, she's not, he's not in her life.

Yeah,

I think I don't know that Liz has an interest in protecting her father, which she might for some reason. Is there a relation to Dino, I'm just saying it is possible that Alicia is naive to it. Just knowing Alicia's personality, she may have never really dug too deep to know about the whole mafia aspect of it. Maybe her mother showed her from

it. Yeah,

but I do see the point of that could be now that doesn't explain Liz's abusive behavior to Joellen, but it could explain why she's so quiet about the homeless thing. Stop with the house thing, it could explain that again. It's a theory

that could make sense, I think. Unfortunately, I don't know, not fortunately, I'm not going to pass judgment either way, but what Liz did exactly the opposite, if that's what she meant to do. If she was trying to get attention off the house, saying now we're all paying attention, and we're much more curious about what really happened, because Liz was so strangely ragey about this.

What's always good about a first season, and it's what we'll always miss comes season 234, whatever. And I remember it clearly, as I'm sure you do, with Salt Lake City, because it's like the last newest one. These people don't know they're not actors, they're not actresses, they don't know how they're going to appear on television, it's their. First rodeo, truly. So, Liz, looking at it, can see, oh God, I made that obvious, but in the moment she didn't. You don't have that now. Come season two, people, some get better than others, some it takes longer to learn, but all of them get with it more, right? So, it could, it could just be that, yes, she made it more obvious, but she didn't realize she was doing that.

The lady's got a temper, and I kept trying to give her a little bit of credit, because she did realize she flipped out at the party for her husband's birthday and apologized, but we haven't. It looks like she's making no move towards apology, at least in what we've seen so far, because she goes and has lunch with Rula and stands 10 toes down on what she did.

Yeah, it's not even a temper, though, Amanda. It's a personality characteristic. Do you know what I'm saying? A temper is, if you and I get an it's a temper, of course. Yes, but let me start with Kelsey. It's a how dare you. You're not allowed to question me to this me to that me. Like,

yeah, you're right. You're right. And then when they do, then it turns into rage. Great point.

Yeah, it's quite frankly, it's scary, and what's interesting, and we haven't seen a ton of her husband. I think his name's Jerry. What we've seen of him is not that, but of course I'm sure he could have another. I have to imagine he does have another side. Like,

yeah, we don't know yet.

I just. I'm scared of Liz.

Yeah, yeah, she is

for sure.

She's, you know, what she told us for herself during the first episode. A lot of people say I'm scary.

Yeah, I wonder why.

Wonder why.

And Joellen's a tough cookie. I would back down to that broad. Let me tell you, I'd be all right, Liz.

Yeah, which,

yeah,

what I got to respect what Joellen did, which she guys just kept trying to calm her down, and then finally lost it. She's what is your problem with me? Yeah,

yeah,

Joellen is tough.

She sure is. We love you guys, and we're gonna see how we feel about Love Island. Can you guys let us know if you want us to watch

it? I, yeah, I'm

gonna watch it later. Now I'm a little hooked. Yeah.

Oh, you are a little hooked. Okay,

I'm a little hooked. I think after you watch tonight's episode, you're gonna be a little hooked.

And you guys, we watch a lot of television. It's a lot of TV to watch.

Yes, it

is definitely a commitment, but we will do it for you guys.

We sure will. We love you guys.

Until I can't possibly, if it annoys me, I will have to stop, but I'm gonna give it two weeks as promised. Love you guys. Have a great week.

Bye, guys. What's up, cocktailers? We want to thank you, as always, for listening to Cocktails and Gossip. Because of you, we've hit some amazing milestones, had some hilarious conversations, and have grown a truly amazing community. If you haven't already followed our podcast, hit the follow button in the top right of your Apple Podcast player, the follow button under the show logo on Spotify or the subscribe button on Google Podcasts, we thrive on you, our audience. So make sure to tell all your gossip-loving friends about us too. And if you want to get all the tea, join our membership cocktail party by going to Bravo and cocktails.com backslash join our members get access to the exclusive tea we post the weekly podcast without ads, plus another additional bonus podcast every week, and of course members also get to join us on our monthly live cocktail party Zoom, where we talk about the latest tea, and even share tea that's just too hot to put in writing. Last, but maybe best, our members get access to the cocktail party Discord, where you can chat with Amanda, me, and all of the other cocktails as well. There are always some great combos and hilarious comments happening in Discord. Thank you, guys, so much for listening. We appreciate you.