This week, we go a little deeper on Bravolebrity relationships and divorces with Michelle Dempsey-Multack, a divorce and co-parenting expert. Michelle gives us some great insight into some of the big Bravolebrity divorces and relationships in the news, and stays to talk about the Real Housewives of New Jersey reunion with us. Michelle spills the tea on which RHONJ husband is not her favorite, the new Housewives, and what she really thinks about Teresa and Louie and whether they’ll go the distance.

This episode brought to you by Cozy Earth. We are LOVING their temperature-regulating bamboo sheet sets. You can get them and anything else from Cozy Earth for 35% off at 

Transcript: Cocktails and Gossip Episode 56

Speaker 1 0:00
women stay for financial reasons. The other side of that is, sometimes you really love a person despite the wrong that they might do, even if they’re abusive. You know, there’s kind of like this Stockholm Syndrome thing that goes on where the good is so good that you’re willing to overlook the bad and it’s a toxic cycle. But that is essentially why another reason why people stay in these relationships

B 0:30
Welcome to cocktails and gossip, the podcast where we drink cocktails, but you better believe we’re going to spill the tea. We chat reality TV, celebrity blinds and the hottest tea from And as always, it’s all alleged and just for fun, we do not verify our blinds. I’am B

Amanda 0:50
And I’m Amanda. Let’s get into this week’s tea.

B 0:57
What’s up cocktailers?

Amanda 0:59
Hey, cocktailers.

B 1:01
So today we’re very excited because my friend Michelle Dempsey, multaq is with us. Did I say your married name right Michelle? You sure did. Michelle is a fellow New York girl. Although she currently lives in South Florida. She can be found on Instagram at V Michelle Dempsey. Michelle is a divorce and co parenting coach and trains divorce professionals to help their clients conquer divorce by taking the co parenting highroad. Michelle is also a best selling author. Her book moms Moving on is a must read for all moms going through a divorce. You can also hear her podcast at moms moving on basically wherever you listen to your podcasts, right Apple, Spotify, all that good stuff. Welcome. Welcome.

Speaker 1 1:49
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. This is like my favorite topic ever. Aside from the one I focus on all day, every day.

Amanda 1:57
Well, we are so excited to have you and funny enough, these topics do tend to kind of overlap. So we are going to pull you in for some of your expert opinions on some Bravo Liberty situations. So we thought we might start with that. There’s a lot of another day another divorce. I feel like when it comes to Bravo, a couple of splits that kind of come to mind are that had been in the news this week are the hawk Steen’s. So Lisa and Lenny in Miami, their fellow South Florida girl she’s also in Miami. So they have two young kids. I want to say maybe their oldest is maybe six. The plastic surgeon husband Lenny, very, very publicly cheated. A lot of us came to light as we were watching the last season of Miami. Then we also have Cory and Kim from Real Housewives of Atlanta. 11 years of marriage for new kids too. He adopted her two oldest girls, they are also going through a very contentious split, lots of financial issues there. So my question for you, and this is going to be a slam dunk, I’m gonna guess. But okay, so both Kevin cry and the Hawks Dean’s are living in still living with each other in their marital homes. Despite the fact that they are going through these nasty divorces. What do you think about the fact that they’re both still living in the homes together? Is there any way that could end? Well,

Speaker 1 3:33
I mean, okay, so let’s first start by saying that these aren’t regular homes, the Hochstein home here in Miami is like, I mean, it’s like seven of like normal homes put together. So in that respect, the space issue is great, you know, but that’s not real life. And for most people who do split and can’t physically separate, yet, it’s a nightmare to be in the same house with the person. If you are high conflict, if there is litigation going on for at least what we’ve seen on the show and heard from what Lisa shares, Lenny was bringing the girl into the house. So I do not think this is a good situation. There is a lot of benefits to this. It’s called bird nesting. And in the divorce world, it’s really, really good for the kids when the kids are adjusting to this new world of their parents being divorced. And what that usually looks like when you’re not a hawk seen or you know, a celebrity. One parent will be in the house for a week with the kids and then leave and then the other parent will come in for a week and when this is done like normally in a healthy way. It’s really really great for the kids up until a certain point, but I don’t know that with all that’s going on with Lisa and Lenny This is the best choice. It seems to me that Lisa doesn’t want it this way. He just refuses to go anywhere. And he’s trying to kick her out of the house and he also

B 4:50
has another condo so I feel like he has full access to the home but I don’t believe he sleeps there

Speaker 1 4:55
every night. No, I think he comes and goes as he pleases and honestly I mean, from what it seems like she’s being tortured by this whole thing.

B 5:04
Have you met them? Do you know them? Do you have any people? Common?

Speaker 1 5:08
in common? Yes, yes. That’s what I’ll say.

B 5:12
Yeah. Because they’re all around Miami. It’d be hard I feel to be in South Florida and not.

Speaker 1 5:17
Yeah, no. And the housewives of Miami are like very accessible. Miami is not a big place. Like, I’ve seen Alexia a million times. She’s really sweet. She always stops to talk. Nicole from Miami is great. She came to one of my book signings last year. She’s so sweet. She brought Grayson, and we connected also about like, divorce and all of that, but But Lisa, no, I see so many people comments on her Instagram, like, you need to follow Michelle, you need to call Michelle and I’m sure she knows of me and and who I am. But you know, some people aren’t always ready for that help. And I think she’s in a place where she’s just probably she’s been so gaslit. And she doesn’t know who to trust. So, you know, I’m not surprised that like, there hasn’t been like an introduction. I feel terrible for her truly. I mean, he’s got a reputation around here anyway, from way before the split. And he’s not well, like they would throw these huge parties all the time. And he didn’t conduct himself like the husband of somebody.

B 6:12
And we saw that I think at the Miami reunion this year, I mean, and Lisa sort of said, like, the way I understood it was she kind of was like, I never expected him to leave me like, you know, like, I guess she was willing to ignore a lot of it.

Speaker 1 6:27
Yes. I think for her, it was like, I this is who he is, I’m going to put up with it. And she had resigned herself to that lifestyle. So for him to like, turn around and leave was definitely very shocking for her. A lot of women are in situations like that. I was

Amanda 6:42
just going to ask you that that topic has come up a lot, the women who seem to look the other way they kind of know their husband strays. So is that is that a what are some of the psychology? Is it about safety for these women? And?

Speaker 1 6:57
Well, I think it’s different in a lot of a lot of scenarios. But what I see is, for financial reasons, you know, women will look the other way they don’t want they know that a divorce will drastically change their lifestyle, maybe they haven’t worked in a long time. Or maybe they don’t want their lifestyle to change. And there’s frankly nothing wrong with that everybody has a different level of tolerance, I think for what their spouse can and can’t do. But more and more than I’m in this, this role as a divorce and co parenting coach, you know, people come to me with all their shit confidentially. And I’m finding out about so many people in open marriages and swinging with other couples, and I’m like, Oh, my God, but this is you know, what some people do? Inevitably, the couples that do this, I see over time, you know, they split up. But I think if you’re dealing with a husband, who you know, he has a lot of money, you’re living a cushy life, and he’s doing his own thing on business trips, or whatever, and you know it, but you don’t you know that a divorce, you signed a prenup, and then you’d be left with nothing. I see why many people look the other way. It’s sad. And it’s a sad way to live. But you know, some people really do care about their appearances

B 8:08
and write the appearances and some people, I guess, say to themselves, like, well, like so long as like you said on a business trip. So the assumption is the public doesn’t know. I think a lot of these, what we’ve seen it’s a couple a couple things in the housewives world. Number one, when it becomes public, it becomes a problem. I know you’re not a Vanderpump Rules gal. But I I think there was some extent of that with Tom and Ariana not that she knew it was as regular as it was, but that when he had cheated, it wasn’t really public. It wasn’t really confirmed. It wasn’t a girl on the cast. So she was willing to forgive him and stay with him. And then the other thing, which is like the Camille Grammer effect, I think a lot of these women, the husbands, put them on the show, to kind of give that Yes. Or even give them the income Michelle, like show them when they’re going for the divorce. Maybe they don’t have to give them as much money.

Speaker 1 9:03
I definitely saw that with Camille Grammer. That’s so funny that you say that. And that was fucked up too. But, you know, it sucks. It sucks. But I do you think? I think Camille would have stayed with him? I think Lisa would stay with Lenny. I mean, she says all the time that she still loves him. I think she’d really look past that. And I do think so the other side of that, so women stay for financial reasons. The other side of that is, sometimes you really love a person despite the wrong that they might do. Even if they’re abusive. You know, there’s kind of like this Stockholm Syndrome thing that goes on where the good is so good that you’re willing to overlook the bad and it’s a toxic cycle. But that is essentially why another reason why people stay in these relationships.

Amanda 9:45
It makes sense. I know that you’re not please I

Speaker 1 9:49
have not apologized to you and your listeners and all of my friends who cannot fucking believe that I am not a VPR person but like, I started and for whatever reason I didn’t get Get into it. And then with each passing season, I’m like, Oh, God, now I’m too far gone. And now, I mean, everybody’s reaching out to me about scandal ball. And I’m like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I really I let everybody down.

Amanda 10:11
There is an Instagram going around. That’s like, here are the episodes you need to watch to catch up. Yes. So I will try that and send it to you. Because it’s like only like 12 verses, you know, however many seasons, but I know you know, kind of the gist, right? And it kind of doesn’t matter. So Tom Sandoval is he’s one of the two times on the show. He’s very big on the spotlight. He’s been in multiple bands, including it looks like a

Speaker 1 10:38
key bass with it. He’s not the mustache. Yeah, I just he looks wormy. I don’t have

Amanda 10:46
my to call him a warm with a mustache. So he’s got his name, like, he’s on multiple bars. Very much all about the you know, he’s obviously on a reality TV show. Do you think it’s possible for somebody who craves the spotlight, to that extent, to be in a healthy, normal relationship with another person?

Speaker 1 11:08
No, I don’t. I mean, there’s a reason why you see all these crazy celebrity dramas, right? And like, none of these things work out. Because when somebody is more attached to the validation they get from the external. This is essentially why people cheat, right? Like they want that external validation. They’re bored of the regular validation they get from their relationship, they’re never going to be able to put that person’s emotions ahead of that high of being famous, or the likes or the money from the next show they’re going to do, listen, could it happen? Sure. Do we see these random celebrities that have been in relationships forever? Yes. But we also don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. So in this type of situation in today’s day and age with like, Insta fame and people becoming reality celebrities overnight, I think, no, I mean, not, at least not from my perspective, and I’m talking

B 11:57
about this makes me wonder how social media is going to, right, because we’re talking about celebrities and celebrities are a small portion of the population. And now we have Instagram, which has given everyday people access to followers and attention on a smaller scale, sometimes on a bigger scale, some of these tech talkers blow up and become famous, right? And you kind of wonder how that will affect them and their relationships.

Speaker 1 12:27
And nevermind that their children like, right, I mean, you look at all of these reality TV stars, and you’re like, Oh, my God, their kids are watching, you know, some of them are, the kids are great. And they seem to have like a healthy relationship with them and with what they put out online. But you know, this desire for fame kind of overrides what’s going on underneath, you know, the roof of your house. And people forget that, like, children are going to grow up and be able to access social media, or they’re going to go to school and be teased because of what their parent puts out online. And on these reality shows, and I don’t know, I just I know in the sand of all situation, there’s no kids, but that’s something that is always top of mind for me when I’m doing my thing on social media or an interviews or whatever.

Amanda 13:15
Agreed. And you know, actually, it’s funny that you brought up the kids because I wanted to talk to you about jerseys. So you know, I know you’re a jersey fan. This reason Joe G dice, Judy, che is that how I say it be? Judy che Yeah, Judy che okay. They went, you know, we know they went through it on screen, right? They both went to jail, Joe got deported, then they got divorced. Despite all of that the kids all seem to be very well adjusted and seem to be very close to both parents. What do you think that Joe and Teresa did right? In that case, to make sure the kids had a really healthy outcome of the divorce all that trauma that they went through as a family,

B 14:03
or are they trauma bonded?

Speaker 1 14:06
I think it could be both right like I think they are trauma bonded to mom because at least GIA was old enough to like kind of hold her mom’s hand through it but all that to say she seems really well adjusted and like you know, a daughter I’d want on my side and hard times. But then I think was it Adrianna who just got into University of Michigan like that’s a REALLA Gabriella was really great frickin school to get to, like wow, so what I think was the benefit to them there is despite the horror of their relationship and what Joe did to put into for Teresa to end up in jail, the strong family values that they have with Teresa’s parents being involved with you know, I guess Melissa and Joe when that was still a thing, and the fact that like you and

B 14:52
Joe cheese family is very involved his brothers, his sister, his Yes, Mom, his dad passed but yeah,

Speaker 1 14:59
we forget that uh, extended family plays such an important role in our children’s lives. And Harvard research shows that you need one stable caregiver in a child’s life in order for them to thrive. Clearly when mom was away, and dad was there by himself, there were other people to step in and help. They were not neglected. And I do think it all comes back to the family values. You know, like, there’s no doubt that in an Italian family values are important, and they are strong, and it’s a village that comes together to raise children. So I do very much think it’s that and also, Teresa has done a really great job of supporting her daughter’s relationship with Joe. Like, yeah, she’s sending the kids down to visit him. They’re FaceTiming they’re calling, you know, they still have love for each other. And you can see that and the kids feel that too, that that goes a long way to for the children.

B 15:45
Michelle, my mom always would say that to me, my mom was a school teacher. And she said that she would often tell parents, and not because she knew about the Harvard study that you quoted, but she would always say it takes one good parent to raise a healthy successful kid. Amen. I mean, look, how many of us, I had two parents. But how many of I know Michelle, your mom was a single mom for time, right? Yes. And so many successful people, friends of ours, and people we know, come from single parent households. So we know that to be the case. And I can talk and believe me, when we get into Jersey, I’m about to talk a lot of smack about Teresa. But one thing that I have said on here, and I always say is I really admire her and Joe’s relationship, Judy, Jay, I admire how they really stuck with each other. I mean, obviously not as romantic partners. But whether they they just the greater good of their four daughters, daughters, whatever was their primary concern the both of them, and I think that was its daughters. I think it’s very rare. That, like Teresa’s very strong and that she was able to do that. I think it’s hard to do that when faced with so much so publicly.

Speaker 1 16:58
Yeah, I mean, Teresa, is not the most insightful makes it easier. You’re saying like, Yes, I do think it makes it a little bit easier. I do think, you know, she’s just like, working with what she’s got every day. I don’t know, I think there’s a lot to be said about her. But I do think that she really, really, really, really cares about her children. And if we’re gonna get into talking about Louis, which obviously, we have to Oh, we have to now I firmly believe that she doesn’t see for a second what he is. She doesn’t see it. She doesn’t know how to see it. She can’t she couldn’t see it with Joe. Like, that makes me sad for her. But you know, but

B 17:38
here’s the okay, but here now, here’s the difference. So we’re seeing okay, you watch this season, we watched him explode at the finale and all that. Do you mean to tell me, Michelle, that he hasn’t shown these behaviors outside of filming the show? I think

Speaker 1 17:55
she has, but she’s also loved bombed and gaslit. Whereas, you know, somebody who is therapy savvy, and who has done maybe some healing work and is really educated on what signs to look for in a toxic relationship. You know, I don’t think she, she’s has that. And, you know, she’s got her love bubble, and he gives her whatever she wants. And, you know, she

B 18:21
was asked on the girls like, is it possible? He’s never snapped on her daughters?

Unknown Speaker 18:25
I don’t think so. I don’t think Do you think it’s coming?

B 18:28
You think it’s not you think that he has snapped on them?

Speaker 1 18:31
I of course, look, it’s easy for him to hide that side of him on camera. But if that’s who he is, and of all these ex wives and ex girlfriends that are coming out of the woodwork to verify that, you know, say this then like, I don’t know. But I do think he has also done a good job of aligning with the girls in whatever capacity he needed to do that. Whether that was like telling them what they needed to hear and love bombing them also, I mean, he’s turned everybody against their family. I feel like No,

B 19:01
listen, and we’re gonna get into their feud and where you stand. But clearly, the Gorgas and the Judy Jays have had issues for years. But what we also saw at the first part of the reunion was Melissa saying, when you got out of prison, and when Joe went away, your first husband, we had Pease, we were hanging out, we were going out to dinners and they showed pictures and for that time from then until she met Louis, and even a little bit into our relationship with Louis things were as copacetic between those. The brother and sister as they ever had been right? Yes, in their married adult lives. So now clearly, you’re dealing with Louie and his mission to push Gorga out is we have Judy Chang another country he could pepper him up he could smile the once every three years he sees on the FaceTime occasionally. And Judy che again you’re dealing with a simple person as you say not that insightful right. He thinks a this guy’s nice he provides a nice home for my girls. Teresa’s happy a let it go. Right? Yeah. And so you turn Gorga against him. It helps that Joe did EJ doesn’t like Oracle all that much because of their issues throughout the years. Right. Right. You also have daughters who are used to a man in the house being gruff and rough around the edges. That’s a good point. Because their dad was so you know, no, no, God rest his soul was similar. And, you know, Gorga does have his blow ups. I don’t really see that around his kids, but certainly, I’m sure they’ve witnessed it. So we know that Joe Judy, che was very rough around the edges. We saw it right.

Speaker 1 20:38
Yeah. So when they are what now that I’m thinking about it, he was rough and Hayden do the repair that I’m sure Louis does. You know, like, there was no yin and yang. It was just Yin.

B 20:49
Right. But there was a true deep real love there as opposed to the whole thing. Where do you land on the jersey? Gorga Judy J feud?

Speaker 1 20:58
I gotta say that this reunion this first one made me really sad. Almost like, I am the most sad for Joe Gorga. You know, do I think Teresa and Melissa have gone out each other equally? Probably do I think maybe Teresa instigated more? Yes. Do I think Melissa, you know, has also pissed off Teresa 100%. But at the end of the day, what matters is Teresa and Joe’s relationship. And what I see from Joe is he’s emotional. And he’s sad. And he’s tried. And I think he feels like no matter what he does, it’s not good enough. He’s heartbroken to not have family anymore. And that makes me so sad. And I gotta say, like, I’m not team Joe and Melissa, because I don’t like to Risa. I’m Team Joe and Melissa because I just feel like they have made more of an effort and they have put themselves out there a lot. And it makes me sad that like the kids want nothing to do with them, like family is all you’ve got at the end of the day. But look, this is just my perception of what I’m watching. I could be wrong. I think there’s a lot despite, you know, Teresa and her shit. There’s a lot to admire about her too. Yeah, she’s been to hell. And back. She’s turned those lemons into lemonade. Oh, yeah. And that’s, you know, for her children a great example. And no doubt why her kids are, you know, have turned out as good as they are. But when it comes to the bullshit back and forth with the Gorgas I gotta say, I’m Team Joe and Melissa, I have a don’t forget, like Kim, Kim D. Remember Kim D was fed that information about Melissa being a stripper in the beginning when she was a cocktail waitress like somebody was always coming from Alyssa. Right? Oh,

Amanda 22:39
absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So Okay, another question just for you. I’m very curious, because we’ve talked about this so much, but with your expertise. So we’re talking about Theresa kind of not seeing Louie and not seeing some of these behaviors and being in his love bubble. Do you think that anybody or everybody in Teresa’s closest inner circle, so her daughter’s her best friend? Do you think any of them are seeing and questioning Louis? Or is everybody in the love bubble?

Speaker 1 23:12
Well, it sounds like Alexia and Todd may have seen it. All right. Oh, didn’t they go? Didn’t think oh, no, you’re thinking of Dina and Tarhana. And

Amanda 23:21
her husband?

Speaker 1 23:22
No, but they didn’t they? Oh, yeah. Alexia and her. Were just away. Okay, you’re right. So it was Dina Dina and her husband? Yeah, I think Listen, eventually a leopard always shows its spots. You know that saying and I think Dina and her husband are very grounded and they just like are enjoying their lives and dinner never really gave a shit about the limelight. I do think they are smart people. But I think

B 23:44
Dina has love for Teresa. And she’s always there for her. But I think that Dave doesn’t want any part of Louie because he thinks he’s, you know, shady. Yeah. But even if you’re watching, right, if we’re watching to recent and current time, I think if we’re looking at it, the people she surrounded with are her fans. You have Jennifer Aiden, who she has a picture of her and Teresa in her bedroom.

Unknown Speaker 24:05
I can’t I can’t

B 24:07
stop it. It’s on the show.

Speaker 1 24:10
I saw that but to Jennifer and Jennifer. I think we’re thing her life is so fucked up. She’s got to hang her hat on and

B 24:21
I’m gonna hold my thought to get back to that. Okay, I want you to weigh in on the eight in marriage. I want you to weigh in on that. And then I want to get I’ll finish my thought. The only having fans go ahead.

Speaker 1 24:32
Wait. Okay, so in marriage, I think Teresa is very like I said, I think you want me to go to Aiden or you want me to talk about Teresa’s friends.

B 24:41
All right. Aiden, go to Aiden.

Speaker 1 24:43
I’m gonna go to Aiden Okay, Teresa, I don’t hate you. If you listen to this. I think you’re wonderful and you deserve the best but okay, Jennifer, darling, what don’t you understand? This man has shown you is told you has basically like spelled that out for you that he wants no part of being a healthy, committed partner. What the fuck actually, if my husband came home and sat in our pool house, which by the way, I wish I had a pool house, and he sat there and did nothing. While my kids were obviously struggling, I would like the pool house on fire. I’m sorry, especially after she’s chosen to forgive him publicly after he humiliated her. I don’t think it’s nice. I think, Jennifer, for all intents and purposes, for whatever it’s worth, I think she’s a good kind person in her heart dealing with a lot of pain. Yeah. And it’s so unfair for her.

B 25:39
And what about when you’re surrounded with family who have similar marriages and who culturally feel this is an appropriate way to be married

Speaker 1 25:46
precisely like shoe? That’s precisely the issue. You know, we’re we’re a Middle Eastern where Turkish This is how our men are you take it or leave it? Well, you know what that means for the kids endless trauma and that sweet daughter of theirs. Oh, my God, who there’s too sweet daughter. No, but the one we have Olivia. Yeah, Olivia wants to be a therapist and help people’s marriages. You know why? Because she’s screaming for help in her own life. And I like want to have her on my podcast, because she reminds me so much of myself at that age, who like, just wanted to, like, make things feel better by fixing my parents. And it’s, it’s heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking. I’ve said, I think Jennifer is one of those people who’s not going to leave because she has this lifestyle. And she doesn’t want to put her tail between her legs and have to say everybody was right.

B 26:34
I think it’s interesting. And I’ve said this on the pod before, I agree with your assessment of Jennifer, I think she gets down and dirty with the girls. It’s a reality show. That’s her job, right. But I think in her heart, we see our help her brother and her parents, she’s very generous. She loves her family. And I think we’re watching in real time, somebody a couple seasons ago, who just realized like, I don’t have to be in a marriage like this. Or I want to try to change my marriage. And now we’re watching her husband, to your point, say, this isn’t changing. Hon, go buy another ring. Buy another dress. Yeah. You know, do some more plastic surgery, whatever it is, but I say that to say, will she not leave? Like will there come up? Just

Amanda 27:14
gonna ask that question. I

B 27:16
seen her evolve, I feel that we’ve watched her evolve. And what I find interesting about Theresa is, I originally saw their friendship because Theresa was used to that, quote, unquote, old school. Now listen, I’m Italian American. There’s nothing old school about it. Yes, back in the day, maybe it was but like, my mother didn’t marry somebody who treated her that way. Right? So I certainly would never marry somebody who treated me that way. So people do evolve and change. And does Jennifer reach a point where she says I want better for my girls, and I want my son’s to know they need to treat women better. I wonder

Speaker 1 27:52
and sometimes I wonder if maybe she is that close to Teresa because Teresa’s life is something that maybe she wants to emulate one day, you know, leave an unfulfilling or bad marriage and then find something better, but I don’t know. I wouldn’t.

B 28:07
close to her. She’s probably seeing and she may be going you know what grass isn’t greener, they’re all crazy. You’re right.

Speaker 1 28:12
But I’ll tell you what, every trailer for every new season, there’s always a comment that makes you think that Jennifer has had enough and she’s gonna leave. And then she never does. This is like the third season that this happens. And I’m like, god dammit, like, what is it going to take for you? But who never will she

B 28:27
just be miserable like her mother and father when she’s older and live separately. Okay. Now here’s the other thing. We saw Danielle Cabral kind of be their soldier. Now we know what that was for that was to secure her spot. She picked their side she listened. If you’re going to pick aside to Reese is a pretty secure side. She’s the only one who’s been there since day one. And she’s not going anywhere. Unless Louis really blows everything up. Right. And Bravo has no choice. So with that said, you look at Danielle. And I mean, by anyone’s estimation, she has a very happy marriage. Her husband, we’ve set it on here happily plays second fiddle to her. You know, it seems to be a very pure loving marriage. Would you agree?

Speaker 1 29:04
Yes. And I love her. I think she was a great addition.

B 29:07
I agree with that. I

Speaker 1 29:08
also really love Rachel. But we can focus on Danielle for now.

B 29:11
I think and I think that they both seem to have modern happy partnerships in a marriage. Yes. I think in many ways we’ve watched Joe Gorga evolve. I mean, he was sort of barbaric when he first started. And then his wife got you know, her own career and her own jobs. And we’ve seen them kind of navigate and make their marriage more modern. So how does somebody like Danielle, maintain friendships with people and again, it’s just a show. So maybe if it’s just a show, you can do it. But with people who she clearly has such different views on marriage with like, you can’t compare Nate to Bill and Louis.

Speaker 1 29:48
No. And I think for her, I mean, her best bet is to kind of just like, keep these relationships as part of her life, but not her whole life. You know, like she doesn’t need to put a picture of any of the other housewives in her bed. Droom but you know, kind of like Dolores is friends with everybody. You’re here. We’re going to be cool when we see each other, but I’m going to have my own life. And I’m going to focus on what goes on between my four walls more than anything else, because that is what sustains me at the end of the day. And I think Danielle is smart enough to do that. I really do. I think she’s great. Yeah, I don’t think there’s, you know, everybody’s making this scandal about her brother. I mean, I don’t think it’s more than that people get into fights for stupid shit. And then they stand on ceremony because they don’t want to admit they were wrong. Like, I think she’s hurt. And I think you know, I don’t know, she’s funny. And I love her personality. And I think she’s been

B 30:37
trying to get on reality TV a long time. And what I hear is that she really wanted to film everything and and even before she was picked up for Jersey, the brother was like, Stop, like, put the cameras down. Not at my wedding, not me on Insta. And then it just got to a point where he was like, enough.

Speaker 1 30:51
Yeah, I can understand that. But anyway, I’d be friends with her in real life, if that’s what you’re asking. Yes,

B 30:57
totally. I just just exactly what you bring up, Rachel. And I was happy to see them bury that stupid feud. Because it was just obvious they were

Speaker 1 31:08
finding out what they’re smart enough to. That’s the thing. You know,

B 31:11
if they really do it, unless they have a new stupid fight next season, because they have to be soldiers for the Oh, geez.

Speaker 1 31:18
I don’t know. But I really I really appreciate Rachel and being a stepmom. And I appreciate the you know, I’m a stepmom, I’m divorced and remarried. I have a daughter of my own and a stepdaughter who I know what it’s like to fall in love with a stepchild and to treat that child like your own. And I appreciated that so much about her and the heartbreak, she started to feel when you know, she learned that this adoption may not go through. And I really respected her for that and showing that side of her. I reached out to her actually, because I want to interview her for my own podcasts. I think she’s great. I also think she’s smart. And I don’t know, I like her a lot. I find that

B 31:57
people who criticize her putting the adoption into her storyline saying Why didn’t she do it sooner? Why did she wait till she was on television?

Speaker 1 32:05
Oh, I don’t think she waited purposely till she was on television. I think there’s probably a lot that went behind that. You know, like the

B 32:14
baby mama getting arrested again and being in a halfway house again.

Amanda 32:17
Right. Like I think and the son expressing that he wanted that too. I think that was a big part of it. Like she she talked about that with him on camera. You know, like this is something you want, right? And he said absolutely.

Speaker 1 32:29
Yeah, I am. I don’t think there was any she to me. Seems like she would choose family over the show any day of the week. And I like that for her.

B 32:37
Yes. And she seems like she has a lovely family. Her mom, her dad, her grandma her Nona. And we’re going to see speaking of Jaden, we see Rachel say on the next reunion that Jaden owns birth mother was contacted by Louis Yeah. Well, I also see Margaret say that her son was threatened at work by Louis and then we see Melissa hold something up. Yeah. So I hear what you’re saying that Teresa really doesn’t see it. And we’ve seen her be dense and deny things right. But how can she not see it? I think

Speaker 1 33:10
she thinks it’s love you guys. Like I really think in her mind. She believes like, look how much he has my back that he would go higher bodhichitta

Amanda 33:18
and he’s protecting me. He doesn’t look unhinged at all by bringing his own security and having his own security downstairs because he’s protecting me. Right, like everyone else is dangerous except for me, Theresa.

Speaker 1 33:32
Yeah, I have a question. They, you know, one of his exes talked about how he would like demand sex three times a day, or whatever. Do you remember this? Yes. Okay. Do you think that he’s doing that with Teresa? Yes. And do you think she thinks it’s amazing? Yes. Because of her pineapple juice, and her this and her that? And also I do, like so I think for her. The things that people complained about with him are the good things for her. You know what I mean?

B 33:57
So does that mean that it’s a marriage that can last because she likes that attention?

Speaker 1 34:02
I think it was I think it’ll last? I think it might last for a while. I do

B 34:07
unless he goes to jail because we know he’s being investigated for various and sundry business dealings.

Speaker 1 34:13
Do you think she would leave him if he went to jail? Are you fucking kidding? No, no, she’s gonna stand by her man. Listen, I do love that part of her and in a way, like that old school commitment that you don’t find that very often. But I even if he did go to jail, which I hope he doesn’t just for the fact that she’s had so much instability in her life and so of the children. I don’t think she would leave him. I just always

B 34:37
find it staggering when you look at a person like Teresa because she’s an example of a personality that’s like this, who expect so much of her brother of her sister in law of her classmates, right? And then in their own, you would see her expect those things and then go home to a guy who called her the C word when she was with Judy che and you say to you yourself. I just don’t understand like to me, my highest demands come from the people closest like my husband, that’s who I expect to be treated the best by not that I put up with his mistreating me, but I expect my coworker to treat me like a queen. Right? You know what I’m saying? Right? It’s like, backwards in some little bit, a little

Speaker 1 35:23
bit, but she places obviously a very big value on her romantic relationships and has her own set of standards for that.

B 35:33
It’s, it’s wild. It’s wild. Somebody a follower actually sent this to me. And I thought it was interesting because we see it the reunion again, Teresa, say, I’m your only storyline right to Melissa. So this follower, I get, you know, you know how it is. I get the DMS and they said, you know, Teresa likes to act like she’s shown so much on the show and has so many storylines. But if you watch back seasons, three to five, she was lying through her teeth about all of her legal stuff, literally refusing to talk about it on camera, which led to her fallout with Jacqueline. She refused to ever be honest about her marriage with gel. It was known that he’d been fooling around with other women for years. Also, this whole idea that now she’s pointing at Melissa and Joe called the Feds is absurd. So this follower said her sister was an intern at a law firm that started investigating the Judy Chaze and the reason was because she was given a $13,000 yellow diamond on tell him I don’t know if this is the reason but when she was on television, Judy che gave her a $13,000 diamond ring on television, in the midst of him being sued by his partner. Yeah, it was his partner who who went it. It’s just ironic that she, she gave other than the table flop and Melissa being a stripper. The only storyline she’s had are things she was forced to confront, like prison like deportation, like divorce. She’s never had an authentic storyline that she brought to the table and we’re going to watch her try to cover up anything they tried to get about Louis,

Unknown Speaker 37:04
I can’t wait for next week. I really can’t.

B 37:07
What we do here that he stayed calm. How in the world. That’s possible. How is okay, I know you’re not an expert on narcissist tendencies. But I feel like you’ve worked with enough couples and families where this is a personality. How is it that people who show these traits of being a narcissist are able to turn it off when they need to

Speaker 1 37:30
because the way people see them as the most important thing in the world to them. The last thing was to hear somebody say I told you so you see, that’s who he is. But you saw a little bit of it in this season, especially in the last couple of episodes where he like freaked out at the party

B 37:45
at Delors which may have been substance induced if he was drinking, okay,

Speaker 1 37:49
whatever. But it was it was a little like, okay, good. Why oh, yeah, it was great. I think you know, if you do first of all, I’m gonna have to say this to anybody listening. The word narcissist is way overused as a society totally. We’ve decided we’ve decided to diagnose all sorts of people without being psychiatrists, the family law industry feeds off of this, especially lawyers who tell their clients Oh, your ex sounds like a narcissist, and then it starts a whole thing. But I am not diagnosing Louis. I will say that his everybody has narcissistic personality traits and his show sometimes. And the way in which his show is like this grandiosity, and this, you know, I’m gonna take care of it. I’m a peacemaker. I’m this and I’m that and then at his core, he’s not and so I do think he’s very, very concerned about how people perceive him and he doesn’t want anybody being able to say, see, look, he’s this or he’s that.

B 38:45
Right? Even though and that’s why it drives him so crazy that on the blogs and on Twitter, people are criticizing him. And that’s why we’re gonna see next week, he allegedly hired a private investigator, he allegedly tried to hire a PR firm to do a smear campaign against Joe and Frank, and it’s all gonna come out

Unknown Speaker 39:07

Amanda 39:07
It’s so sad well, and we know too, you know, as a narcissistic personality, you know, you want to be seen and whatever he saw Teresa out and tried to get on the show, like with a quote unquote, surprise visit, we saw that in the previews as well. And of course, like it all, I mean, the math is math thing for me, it’s all kind of adding up that that’s pretty typical for somebody who, who, let’s just say has an ulterior motives and it feels like a lot of it. He’s just handled terior motives.

B 39:40
And somebody like Marge and somebody like Marge, who has her arsenal and who does her due diligence and who is a very smart savvy woman is his worst nightmare.

Speaker 1 39:52
Yeah, and he smelled that from the beginning. Yes, he did. I love me. He’s not afraid of

B 39:57
him. Like in other words, delora knows everything we know. Dolores thinks everything we think but Dolores is like, I don’t gotta go to bed with him. It’s her choice. She has been. And I’m gonna say this and I haven’t said this before we always say like she plays Switzerland. I think that if there was not a show because let’s call it what it is. This show is Dolores, his main source of income only source of income. She now has another wealthy boyfriend but without it without the boyfriend without the show. She doesn’t work her kids or adults Frank doesn’t is under no obligation to give her and I don’t you know, he’s no longer an attorney. So I say all that to say. I don’t believe that Dolores would be friends with Teresa. If the show around. I don’t think they’d be enemies, but I don’t think she would be going out with her and lowing. Yeah, you’re probably not wrong.

Amanda 40:42
Yeah, she might be friends with Teresa, but not with them as a couple you are not wrong.

B 40:47
And with you. So what do you think? What do you think we see next season? And why do you think we’re taking a pause for filming while they figure it out?

Speaker 1 40:57
I think they’re taking a pause because they don’t know who to bring back and who not to bring back. I’d be devastated if they didn’t bring back the Gorgas. Although I think they would because people want to see what unfolds next. I don’t know. I mean, I think the more we see somebody on camera, the more their true colors come out. That’s for damn sure. And maybe we see Jen and fuckface split up who knows. So you don’t like to go I don’t like Bill fuckface. I do not like him. I’m sorry. But like, he gets sloppy drunk. He’s an embarrassment. Like, tell me you love your wife and show me that and I will change my opinion.

B 41:37
I have to also say something and this is sort of a side note but him and Hochstein they focus on female plastic surgery. A lot of the females getting plastic surgeries are moms like us who in their right mind wants to go to these freakin men for their money makeover? Riddle me that, oh, I wouldn’t let Hochstein touch me with someone else’s. Fucking I know.

Speaker 1 41:56
I have a friend who had a very bad experience with him and ended up not using him. But she went for a consult. And she said it was like humiliating and degrading how he treated her and she never went back.

B 42:07
Oh my god. Yeah. And so how does he make this money?

Speaker 1 42:11
Listen, he has not five minutes from my house, a giant building plastic surgery building that he owns. So he owns it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, he’s,

B 42:19
he’s making the real estate more. So

Unknown Speaker 42:21
yeah, for sure.

Amanda 42:22
So then we have you know, we haven’t talked about Jen Fesler. I want to talk about her. And what do you think, Michelle? But also she shared and helped me because I’m a little fuzzy on the details, but she shared that didn’t her husband cheats, and then they got back together.

Unknown Speaker 42:40
It sounds like it. It sounds like they’ve had

Amanda 42:43
they were split. Yeah. Yeah. And what do you actually say the only thing

Speaker 1 42:47
to know about Jen Fesler. It’s right. That’s what she said. The only thing to know about her is that she banged my favorite on screen man ever Tony Soprano, as James Gandolfini, but in my mind, he was Tony Soprano, in their little interlude, and I think that’s the most iconic thing, but I also think she’s funny. She’s got great style. She’s like, light, and you know, she’s smart. I really, really like her too.

Amanda 43:13
So you’re saying, if you had had the chance, Michelle, you would have smasher pass Tony Soprano, but have been smash

Unknown Speaker 43:22
smash all day,

B 43:23
every day. Okay, but in his role as Tony Soprano, or just normally, in his role as Tony, I, you know, I mean, I like a good mob boss, but doesn’t know for me. Oh, God, I don’t you know, he was only like, 32 when he started filming that.

Speaker 1 43:38
Really? No, it’s so sad that he’s dead. I think about it all the time. He’s dead a while and his poor son, like, whose son tried his best. And that remain. I had to turn it off.

B 43:48
And watch it. It was bad. You know, this is another thing I want to say. And then I want to get your thoughts on Jackie and Evan, who by the way, we’re hearing Jack, he’s not going to be back even in a frank capacity next season. But who knows? I mean, who knows? Because they’re on break. And nobody really knows anything. When watching this season, I thought to myself, because there’s no mistaking that this cast is at each other’s throats. I mean, this reunion is we’re all going to see it. And I said you have Fessler who could be the new Marge, you have Fouda who could be the new Melissa. And you gotta yell who can be the new Teresa except for the Healthy Marriage. And so like, is that their plan? Like if they can figure this out? If they try next season? And it’s like enough, Louis becomes too toxic? Do they just scrap and go with those girls and build around them?

Speaker 1 44:33
I don’t think Andy would ever be stupid enough to let Theresa go

B 44:37
unless he’s put in a position where Louis becomes I don’t know. I mean, Jen shop filmed right up until she went to the slammer. So I get voted Teresa and Joe.

Amanda 44:48
I don’t think anyone housewife is on fireable, though I don’t I think after what we saw with Vicki and even Tamra more unput on possible I want everybody.

B 45:00
I mean, Atlanta is still suffering six years later because Nene is gone.

Unknown Speaker 45:06
For real, I stopped watching after that I always

B 45:08
watch but like I get, like I see a lot this week. I didn’t even watch it. What are your thoughts on Jackie and Evan, you know,

Speaker 1 45:15
I think she did. I was sad for her when that whole thing happens, because I never in a million years thought that that was going to come up for them. I do think it was very healthy for her to not be back on the show whether or not she was invited back. I don’t know. But she’s somebody who really does care about her family. And she’s smart. She’s very smart. And she’s level headed. And I think that, you know, not being on the show was probably better for her in terms of her. Her healing journey with her eating disorder and the drama that stirred up for her and Evan, he’s hot man. And I’m sure him being on the show has made ladies come out of the woodwork. She’s probably like, please stay away.

B 45:54
I never saw like The upside to her being on the show. Because she’s independently wealthy. He does well, she never had a business or something that she was pushing or promoting or getting off the ground. So it was just a desire to be famous, which I never understood, either. Because she’s such like a normal like, she seems like someone I’d be friends with in real life. Like, I’d go out to dinner, her and her husband. You know what I’m saying? Yeah, so,

Speaker 1 46:18
but I think she realized that I’ve talked to other housewives, not her who have said, you know, if there wasn’t this contract where we’re stuck here for a few years, there’s no way I would have continued, you know, yeah, maybe she thought it’d be a fun opportunity. You know, I think everybody who starts it truly believes that they’re not going to become the brunt of drama, because they’re going to try their best to stay out of it. But that’s inevitably what happens.

B 46:42
And also, I guess it could become a thing where you don’t want to feel like you didn’t give enough so they’re cutting you right. So every you know, nobody wants to not be asked back, I guess,

Speaker 1 46:53
I guess. But I also I’d rather not be asked back because I was protecting myself and my family then be asked back at the sake of my family’s emotional well being

B 47:03
as much. I mean, nobody loves reality television like I do. And I’m not a wealthy person. There isn’t $1 amount that you could give me that would if somebody was like be here’s $10 million. Come on Real Housewives of New Jersey or here’s your own show. I would be like hell to the no, no, I’d rather work my normal job for the rest of my life and live my normal lifestyle. Then exploit my family. I just, I don’t know. I would be too scared of what would happen. Also my husband’s Hi. I feel like I’d be like an an Evan situation. They’d all be after him.

Amanda 47:38
Yeah. And it’s hard enough. Honestly, it’s hard enough to be apparent. It’s hard enough to be a kid to add that extra layer of, you know, the weird fame. And then, like the mean online stuff, I just don’t understand. Personally, I would never want to do it. I would never want to introduce anything like that that would make life could possibly mean. I didn’t have

Speaker 1 48:01
the stomach for that either. Yeah, like I don’t even when someone leaves a nasty message in my comments. Now. I’m like, why? You know, like, I just I could never handle like tabloid stuff and people hating me. Like, I would die. It’s not for me.

B 48:15
I would probably be like, the crazy like, one yelling at you. No. Yeah, no, it’s not for me.

Speaker 1 48:23
I’d be a Jackie, I try real hard to just like lay low and like, get myself off the show.

B 48:30
Michelle, it has been amazing having you with us. You have to come back.

Speaker 1 48:33
Or you know what my favorite part of this was the fact that for a long time be people thought I was you and you were me.

B 48:39
And you happen to know what I look like. I know

Unknown Speaker 48:43
who you are. Don’t tell anybody.

Amanda 48:46
I was what you both look like and you’re both gorgeous.

Unknown Speaker 48:50
Oh, so are you?

B 48:52
I know what was that people thought? Well, we have it’s funny. We met because of a mutual friend Instagram account. Stone Cold daddy, who’s actually my friend in real life. And oh, he’s so funny. And he would he would send me your stuff like an I guess you are Bravo fan. And that’s how we we met. And I always love all your

Speaker 1 49:12
data we met. And it was amazing to me that like I truly love your account before I knew you. Yeah, I mean, it’s amazing that people would be like, I know this is you even my best friends who live up in New York. We’re like, is this you? Come on. You could tell us I was up in New York two summers ago, and they made me prove that it wasn’t

B 49:29
wait. And I wonder because I don’t think Listen, we certainly have the same sort of accent. I mean, you’re Jewish American. I’m Italian American. If anyone is familiar with either culture, we’re basically the same except one of us. So Sicilian. Oh, there you go. I’m not Sicilian. I’m Appleton but and I’m actually half Irish. But my mom was Italian and like Jews, you are what your mother is. What do you say and except for the fact that you know Jesus is my Lord and Savior and he isn’t yours. I would say Jewish and Italian are basically you do Same.

Speaker 1 50:01
Yes, I agree. 100% You know, having been brought up in both cultures that I never really saw much of a difference other than the food, right?

B 50:08
My cousin is actually a couple of my cousins are Jewish and Italian and my mom and so it was Rachel Fudo, which I love about Yeah, well, that honestly, in New York and New Jersey that is such a common because we’re so much alike that our men like you know, back and forth, it’s the same kind of deal. People always thought my mom My mom was raised in Brooklyn, and she went to public school and at that time, most Italians went to Catholic school. So all her friends were Jewish, and then she was a school teacher and all her friends there were Jewish, so everyone just assumed my mom was Jewish. But you’re gonna come back on Michelle, and one of these days when I’m in my condo in South Florida, we’re actually every time I’m there, Amanda. Michelle is traveling. No, because it’s always like the winter break your fancy and you ski I don’t know when I’m getting there this summer because I have a fancy and um, yeah, where do you go, Vail or Yeah, I have my ashes on your mount going.

Unknown Speaker 51:03
I’m going to Sicily next week. Stop it, so don’t worry. I’m not gonna

B 51:06
I’m still New York School. Still my kids are still in school to end of June. You know how it is over here? Yeah, part one.

Speaker 1 51:14
We’re going to Noto and Terra Mina and Catania and then Rome on the way home long before

B 51:19
the White Lotus when I was a college student studying abroad in Florence, my best friend and I took the train to Tamina and it is my favorite city. I’ve been back a couple times I took my husband. It’s the most incredible. I am there have you been?

Unknown Speaker 51:35
No, I’ve been to Italy but not Sicily. So

B 51:37
I’m gonna tell you where to get the best arancini and you have to go to BAM bar for their Grenada, their ice band bar and bar is featured in the White Lotus. It’s like very well known.

Speaker 1 51:47
I know my travel agent mentioned it but send me the rice ball details because I

B 51:51
have to like Google X. I never remember the name but I know what it looks like on the street map. All right, girl. All right, time. Thank you cocktails for tuning in and make sure to check out Michelle at the Michelle Dempsey on Instagram, her podcast, mom’s moving on and her best selling book also titled mom’s moving on, which I’ve purchased for a few of my friends since you read. Oh, thank you.

Amanda 52:17
We love having you. Please come back. Okay. Bye, everybody. Bye, guys. Bye.

Amanda 52:30
Thank you guys so much for listening. I just want to ask you guys a favor, just getting kicked off. So many people have been asking us to do this podcast. So please do subscribe. And if you’ve subscribed, go to your podcast app and hit those three little dots to share with your friends. But only friends who like a tea because the ones who don’t care about tea then like forget them. And don’t forget find us on Instagram at Bravo and cocktails underscore and check out the website because some great tea gets put there daily. That would get us kicked off of Instagram. So thanks for listening, everybody.

B 53:11
Bye guys. See you next time.